Speaker 1  00:00
Alex, welcome to HelixTalk, a podcast presented by the Rosalind Franklin University, College of Pharmacy. We're hoping that our real life clinical pearls and discussions will help you stay up to date and improve your pharmacy knowledge. This podcast contains general information for educational purposes only. This is not professional advice and should not be used in lieu of obtaining advice from a qualified health care provider.

Narrator - Dr. Abel  00:29
And now on to the show.

Dr. Sean Kane  00:31
Welcome to HelixTalk. Episode 25 I'm your co host, Dr. Kane and

Speaker 2  00:35
I'm Dr. Patel. We're missing Dr. Schuman, but we have a guest faculty. Dr. Bradley Cannon, Hello, who's going to help us understand what pharmacy education is all about. And we're trying out something new for this episode. So it's going to be Question and Answer in interview format to help you get some knowledge as to what pharmacy was before, what it is now, and where it's

Dr. Sean Kane  00:59
going absolutely. So we're going to go ahead and kind of kick things off. Dr. Cannon with Could you just tell us, maybe in a minute or less, kind of what your pharmacy experience has been like from school all the way till now?

Speaker 3  01:11
Wow, 20 years. In a minute, I'll do my best. So I began working as a delivery guy for community pharmacy my senior year in high school, and gradually fell in love with the profession, went to University of Illinois, graduated in 94 and during my last year in training on my third rotation, I fell in love with teaching, and so did a residency and stayed at the University of Illinois for quite a While, first working as a clinician and taking students, and again, realizing that I loved pharmacy, but I also love the education piece, and was able to move into experiential Ed, where I've stayed for about 20 years. So let's

Dr. Sean Kane  01:50
back up to the very beginning. I think that that really sets a good overview of kind of your career path and things like that. What was it at the very beginning that got you interested in pharmacy, and how did that kind of evolve?

Speaker 3  02:02
It started as an afternoon job, and the owner, it was an independent pharmacy. The owner, Ed Brees, needed somebody to work in his store three half days a week, and the store was literally as a nine foot wide store, and it was just it was tiny. We didn't have a delivery car, so it was about blocking prescriptions to people's houses at first, but the more time I spent with him, I saw what it was to be a healthcare provider. This is the guy who would open his pharmacy at eight o'clock at night if somebody needed something, and the reason he would do that is because people knew that they could call him to get a prescription. So he also started doing some rather novel things with at that time anyway, working with nursing homes. So I got into the cart fill business relatively, relatively quickly after that. And as I continued on in college, I was able to come back on the weekends and the summers and do that, the more I got into the store aspect of things, and working with patients and their medications, and developing a relationship and trust with him, the more he gave me to do. And it just it became clear, and even though I wasn't in college to be a pharmacist, it became clear three years down the road that I made a choice in the wrong direction, and kind of had to go back and go to pharmacy school because I really enjoyed it.

Dr. Sean Kane  03:19
So what was the initial direction before you went to the pharmacy direction.

Speaker 3  03:23
I was going to be a mechanical engineer, really, and got to thermodynamics. And that was the point at which I said, you know, maybe, maybe this isn't right, and I'll never forget it. I was home for a weekend. I was going to work. I was looking forward to being at work. And I was in the car with my mom, and I said, you know, Mom, I think I want to be a pharmacist. And she, without a hesitation, said, You know, I can see you doing that. And so it was a pretty it was a pretty easy decision, very well supported. And at the time I made the decision, I had a plan. All figured out. I was going to go home and go into partnership with Mr. Brees and be a great community pharmacist.

Speaker 2  03:59
And things kind of totally changed for butter. Well, great,

Speaker 3  04:04
it did. It changed because I fell in love again, and that was with teaching. And so Mary Lee, whose name might be familiar to you or people who are listening now, was a faculty member at the University of Illinois, and she had a six week elective in surgery, and I wanted to do that rotation. I really respected her. I really liked what she was doing. She had been a mentor to me from the very beginning, and so I had the opportunity to do that, and she had a grand rounds lecture. She said, you want to do this? I said, Sure. And I got up on the stage and gave a lecture on prostate cancer, and fell hard,

Speaker 2  04:43
and so you mentioned that, you know, you wanted to go back to the community pharmacy. That's how you entered the pharmacy school. And a lot of students go through this decision change process that you decided to do residency. And so can you tell us a little bit about what was residency like back then? You did the residency, and what it is like now,

Speaker 3  05:02
you know, I think, I think the training aspect of it is still relatively the same in terms of their patients that need to be taken care of, and you're a part of a team, and they rely on you in a way that in school, you not really, you don't quite get it. And one of the bigger decision points for me in terms of choosing to do a residency was, you know, six months after the third year class, it was ahead of me. So they were now fourth year students came out, I could see a big difference in what they were able to do and the way they carried themselves. And as I got to know some of those people, they said, We're going to do a residency. And I'm like, Well, why are you doing that? And they said, well, we want more of this. And sure enough, it was the opportunity to continue to get the growth. And it wasn't as much about the knowledge, but it was everything to do with the skills and the attitude, and again, realizing every day that the decisions you were making had meaning.

Dr. Sean Kane  05:58
I can't even emphasize that enough and kind of reflect what you said, that there's such a transition point from a p3 student to a p4 student once they've had a couple rotations under their belt. There's a mindset change. There's a professionalism change. They really realize, you know, they have a huge impact. They realize that they're directly involved in patient care. It's not about what do I need to know for the exam? It's about what things can I learn to take better care of my patients? I think that's a really cool transition to see

Speaker 3  06:25
absolutely, from a from a faculty standpoint, you're right. It's that. It's that moment, and it's not really the aha moment, because to me, the aha moment is when you understand something or you got it, but it's the, you know, well, what dose Do you want to put them on? Seven and a half milligrams. Okay? And they stop, and they're like, but is that okay? I don't know. Let's find out. And it's like, oh. And then they know they can do it, because two days later, they see the impact it is. It's a horribly addicting feeling to watch that happen.

Dr. Sean Kane  06:54
So I assume in your residency, you did the on call program I did was that challenging for you

Speaker 3  07:00
it was, it was one of the things that I thought I really wanted in a program. So it made my list of programs relatively small, because at that time, there weren't a lot of on call programs. It really came down to again, the University of Illinois, University of Kentucky, at that time, were the two bigger programs that had call programs. But we got more than we bargained for, I guess, because at that time, we had two hospital systems, so we were on call anywhere from once to twice a week. And again, you talked about the transition from p3 to p4 when it's you and it's three o'clock in the morning and you're looking at this and say, I don't know how to neonate load this person on phenytoin. I'm going to have to call Donna Kraus. Do I really want to do that? Yeah, I'm going to do it. Then I'm going to make sure I have all my ducks in a row. But it is, when everybody's looking to you and there's nobody else there, there's a lot of growth. There's a lot of potential for growth, right?

Speaker 2  07:59
That being said, I felt like looking at your CV to kind of give back in that role too, where you were the on call faculty mentor for other residents to call. So it's kind of like, you know, receiving in and giving, and it's a two different spectrum. So glad to see that you served in that capacity

Speaker 3  08:15
as well. And, you know, I think, I think in most cases, we all want to find a way to give back, whether it's precepting, whether it's being somebody on call for that resident like you in the middle of the night, it is. It's nice to be able to be in a position where you feel like you can be of some use.

Dr. Sean Kane  08:33
So kind of reflecting back to either your p4 year on rotations or even in your residency year, can you recall any time that you really struggled, either academically or struggled in terms of life decisions, or some critical decision point where you just weren't sure what to do, or something that really sticks out in your mind?

Speaker 3  08:54
December of my residency year, I had gone to mid year, I think it was in Atlanta with the thought of being done with training and taking an ambulatory care position as a faculty member. So I wanted, I wanted faculty role, and I wanted M care. And after I got to mid year and going through the PPS process, which you're nodding your head about, people can't see that, but we all know what PPS is like, it became clear very quickly that the jobs I wanted, they were looking for somebody with a PGY two in amcare. So now I'm sitting there and I'm like, What am I going to do? Do I start interviewing for PGY twos in amcare? Do I start looking for a program, these other jobs that are out there, there are positions that are available, but that's not what I want to do. I was really, really really at a crossroad, and then we got word back that one of our faculty had died in a freak accident, and he was going to be my preceptor in January. And this faculty member was brilliant, and he had established in. Himself as the foremost authority on that service, and was not to be challenged in any way by any of the residents. In fact, the chief of the division would start his indoctrination of new residents, saying, This is our pharmacist. Don't get in a pissing match with him about drugs. You know, who will win? And I walked on to this service in January, where the mood was just somber. I mean, everybody was really just depressed, almost. But we had 40 patients on the service, and they were used to having a pharmacist that they could literally ask what he thought and do what he said, and then say thank you for because they knew their patients were getting taken care of. So I went from I don't know what I'm going to do, to everybody is doing exactly what I tell them to do and how to do it. So I was waking up at four o'clock in the morning going, all right, who died? Because it was that. I mean, it was that much. But again, like I mentioned about falling in love with pharmacy, I fell in love with the service. And that ended up being my first job. I stayed for January, and then I stayed through February and went back into the third month, and then applied for the position, and was successful in landing it in which unit or service was that vascular surgery. So they had a pretty robust surgical service, and they also had two half day outpatient clinics as well, mostly managing Coumadin and some other things, and working with surgeons in that environment was great. It was, it was a great opportunity. And I give you know Dr. McClellan all the all the praise in the world. He'd set that service up. I just came in and picked up where he left off. And again, just a crazy set of circumstances, but worked out.

Speaker 2  11:42
So it has been a very long and diverse career path. And did you think you were ever end up in the current position you're in?

Speaker 3  11:50
You mean Director of Experiential ed at Rosalind Franklin University.

Unknown Speaker  11:53
That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Speaker 3  11:56
I don't know that I ever really thought that far ahead. And I think the one thing that I've learned is that trying to think three to five years down the road doesn't really work in this profession, because there's always different opportunities to do different things. I didn't think I would be an experiential Ed, quite honestly. And I was enjoying my service. Everything was going really well. I was enjoying the students that I had to work with, and Avery spun, and some of you might know Avery said, I've got a ticket to the White Sox game this afternoon. Do you want to go? And I'm like, Sure. And what I thought was going to be a nice afternoon out with the Director of Experiential Ed turned into, okay, I've got a position that's opened up in my group. You want to come? You want to interview for this? So, I mean, it's everything has happened the way that it is, I wouldn't change a thing about it, but it's, there's always been an opportunity to do something else. And I came to my point at Illinois, where I was again, I enjoyed what I was doing. I enjoyed the teaching I was able to do. I enjoyed working with the fourth year students in an academic environment. But there were some opportunities that I didn't have. And I saw an ad for Rosalind Franklin and Scott, and I talked and I interviewed here, and there are some wonderful things going on here that I can't wait to get involved with, in terms of the inter professional activities and the ICC clinic and the simulation center that's that's downstairs. I mean, there's, there's tremendous opportunity to continue down the road, and we'll see where it goes from there.

Dr. Sean Kane  13:22
So I want to transition a little bit to the teaching aspect, which is kind of the thing that you said really captured your attention fairly early on in your career. Anyone who looks at your CV, it's hard not to notice how well decorated you are as a teacher in terms of Teacher of the Year and Goldman Apple Teaching Award. What is it do you think about your teaching style, or the way that you connect with students that makes you fit that role so well? In the sense of that, students really respond well to you?

Speaker 3  13:52
I don't I don't know exactly what it is about what I do with students, but I got a very nice email from a student who I had worked with a long time ago when he found out that I was leaving, and he said that his definition of professionalism, that he got from me was that we were very serious about what we were doing. It was an important job that we had to do, not only in terms of taking care of patients, but making sure that we went out of our way to educate others, not just patients, but other healthcare professionals. And that's what he thought of when he thought about me in the classroom, and I will use his definition of professionalism from now on. I think it's one of the nicest compliments I've ever gotten from a student who who grew into this amazing pharmacist and and so I think, you know, maybe some of the things that I did early on and got recognized by my students, I think that has evolved over time. I think it's I've learned a lot, and they continue to teach me a lot about about learning and about education and about. Learning in this environment, and and I continue to wonder and think about and sometimes struggle with, you know, the way to communicate in the way to work with students in the environment we live in now. And how do you build trust through email, and how do you build consensus through Twitter or whatever else, or a podcast? Even you know it's, it's, it's challenging for me. It's fun in some ways, but it's also a challenge and a struggle to keep finding ways to connect with students who are learning and living in an environment where we never did,

Dr. Sean Kane  15:32
kind of drilling down more into that. Are there any aspects of your teaching that, let's say, a listener who wants to become a teacher of pharmacy students or a preceptor or something like that. Are there any pearls that either they can pull out from you or kind of the opposite? Are there any things that you don't do that you see teachers doing that is not very conducive to learning or not very conducive to connecting well with

Speaker 3  15:55
students in the classroom setting? I don't like technology in my classroom, I don't like laptops, and so I don't, I don't know how I'm going to adapt to that environment, because here, you know, laptops are something that everybody uses, so I have to figure out now how to almost reinvent myself in this new environment, and thinking about, you know, what am I going to do? I can't, I can't just say, no more computers, no more laptops. Put your phones on the desk up front here and just listen to me talk. I have to go in a bit of a different direction and figure out how to make those things work together in an effective manner. I know we've talked about some things, and I'm interested in, you know, Kahoot and some other kinds of aspects to seeing where I can find the win. But I think the thing that may serve me well in trying to figure out this new environment is going to be my my ability to ask students, tell me what you're using, tell me. And I'm okay with being taught by somebody else, and it's okay that I don't know all the answers. And I think, I think it's another thing too. In terms of a faculty position, I think your students have to understand that we're all put in situations where we don't know, and it's okay not to know. What's not okay is to not know and then put somebody in harm's way by not admitting the fact that you don't know. So I will continue to work with students, and I will continue to develop those kind of relationships that allow me to listen to what they're saying and try and look for the win and really make the classroom and the courses that I'm involved with a two way street. We're all trying to get better, and that's what it's all about for me.

Speaker 2  17:34
You know, we talk about work and we talk about personal life at the same time, because, you know, pharmacy is a smaller world, and even in your personal life, you interact with so many pharmacists, like you mentioned every spot you thought you were going to watch a game, but it turned out to be almost like a career opportunity, or more of a networking opportunity. So how do you maintain that work life balance?

Speaker 3  17:56
You know, I think being a faculty member is is the best, okay? And I'm biased. I think the academic freedoms that we have and the things that are in place at this university are people aren't going to tell you how to manage your time, necessarily. You have a job to do. You have a responsibility. You've taken on some some tasks they need to be done. And your department head or your dean isn't going to come in here and say if you were in your test questions yet, and I have you get your lecture handout done. And I will admit there were times that I came into a classroom with warm handouts. Okay, so they hot off the printer right then and there, and and I learned from that, and you move on and but I think here, you know, once you realize that you have a responsibility to get things done and you're not necessarily held to a particular schedule, we know we have classes to teach. We know there's certain things that have to be done, the work life balance, while the older you get, and the more responsibilities and more hats you wear outside of the classroom become more challenging. I think, I think there's a there's not very many other places where you can have the opportunity to set your own schedule, and again, working here and working in other places as well. There's, there's different challenges and nuances that come to it. But this university is very strikes me being here for the six months that I have appears to be very supportive of maintaining those kind of things. And in a we want you to take care of yourself approach to

Dr. Sean Kane  19:31
So one last question about kind of your career path and where you've come from, and then we're going to ask you a couple questions about kind of the profession of pharmacy and things like that. What thing about your career you most proud of looking back on all of your different opportunities that you've had and things like that, what is one thing that really like if you could mention it on your CV at the very, very top, what would be that one thing that you want people to know about your career path as it stands right now,

Speaker 3  19:56
I'm very happy with the things that I've been able to. Do for our students. So my students, they're my trolleys. You guys are my legacy. And that's the thing that makes me most proud, is to run into a graduate and hear all the good things that they're doing. And now on LinkedIn, we get to see these things a little more openly, and maybe on Facebook, although I don't do much with Facebook anymore, but, but there's, you get to see these things happening, and you watch these people grow, and you watch them develop and do these just amazing things. And probably one of the proudest moments I've ever had was sitting in a room at AACP for a Teacher of the Year Award luncheon, and one of my students was winning a Teacher of the Year award. And I'm like, Cool, that's got, yeah, that's, that's it. There it is. You didn't get any better than that. So proudest achievement is watching, watching the students that I have worked and they'll tell you, at least, I hope they do it's effortful. It's not, it's not something that you just go do and stop, you know, and put away for the day and go watch some TV. And no, it's hard work, and I'm going to push you out of your comfort zone, but to watch those people grow into that there's nothing better for me.

Speaker 2  21:12
So so far, we talked about your career path and some pros and tips that you can share with us. Let's switch gear a little bit and talk about how you can help pharmacy students. So what kind of advice do you have for our p1 to p3 students, and then maybe p4 students who are planning to pursue residency fellowships, postgraduate opportunities?

Speaker 3  21:33
I think for me, I think one of the best things about being at the University of Illinois, and one of the great things about Rosalind Franklin is there's so many opportunities to get involved outside of the classroom. I'm not saying don't go to class. I think you should. And I know there are faculty around here who have varying opinions about attendance and classes, and that's fine, but I think there's so many opportunities in this profession to get involved right now, whether it's through an organization, a professional fraternity here, the interprofessional Care Clinic. I mean, there's so many things you can do, and it's easy to get bogged down, and I've got to do this on this exam. But there's, there's never, ever been a time that I have thought back on my four years of pharmacy school and said, I wish I would have studied more, not one. I think it's, I don't want somebody to go on a five year plan, but at the same time, I would, I would wholeheartedly recommend sacrificing an A for a professional opportunity, because it's not what you learn that's going to make you into the professional. It's what you do when adversity strikes. It's what you do when you're put in a situation that you don't know what to do. Those are going to be the defining moments. Now, when do you want to have those defining moments on the job? Or when you're a p1 or a p2 or a p3 and you start building that thought process of, this is how I'm going to handle this. When I'm in their shoes, this is how I'm going to handle it when I'm the pharmacist in charge, when I'm the manager, when I'm the director. I just think there's too many good things that come from that. So first and foremost, find a place to get involved. There's a place for you here someplace, and if you cannot find a place, then that's when I want you at my door, because I'll find a place for you.

Speaker 2  23:11
And I think that's hands down the best advice you could have given to P ones through p4 students, because that's one of the challenges. As some of the faculty advisors to the student organization, we are facing is lack of leadership, and we're trying to figure out what is going on that the students are not willing to be involved, besides just academic workload or even personal professional workload and things like that. So I hope the students are really listening to this and taking a note of eyes and taking hints.

Speaker 3  23:43
And I know that we worry about them saying that I don't want to do this because I need to study more and or I understand that they're all people from all walks of lives, and they too wear many different hats when they're outside of here. But so many times I have found that it's they just don't know where to get started, or they just don't they just don't know what to do to find their fit. It's there. They just need to find it. And that's, again, the nice thing about the faculty here, everybody's involved in something. And we all would like you to be involved in the things we're involved with, obviously, but if it's not for you, then we can, we can find somebody else who is,

Dr. Sean Kane  24:17
I think, reflecting back on what you said, you have to think about too, that your time in pharmacy school isn't just about what you learn in the classroom, it's about all of the other things, like time management. And I think that that's a really important point that is easily forgotten by students who have an exam coming next week, and they lack the insight, if you will, of you know, wow, that could be a really good learning opportunity to work at that underserved clinic and really be impacted by, you know, this one patient who I will never forget about, what statins can do with muscle pain or something like that.

Speaker 3  24:49
I think it. And again, I understand and I remember what it's like to be, you know, you're staring down the barrel of finals and all the other I understand that it's but the perspective we all. Have now, we, we can see it a little bit differently, and it's trying to share that with the students. In terms of, there's, there's a bigger picture here and and just in terms of thinking about, you know, the knowledge, how much of what I learned have I had to unlearn, or has now been changed, because the profession is advanced, the drugs are different. I mean, we're about to cure Hepatitis C, and that's just crazy to even think about. I can go back and find my notes someplace, but they're all worthless. But the time management and the relationship building and the working with people and the good times too, those, those are the things that stay with you,

Dr. Sean Kane  25:39
and this shouldn't be the primary driver. But in addition to all of those things, you know, pharmacy student has to be thinking about what they're going to do when they graduate. And how do you stay competitive and get the job you want? I promise you your grades aren't enough to get that dream job of a residency or wherever you want to end up. It has to be more than just your grades, and things like extracurricular activities are a great way to stand out, especially if you take a leadership role to show that you're able to handle adversity, time management, that you show an interest in something that someone hasn't held your hand and said, Well, you have to do this, otherwise you won't graduate pharmacy school. To me, that's one of the best things to help yourself stand out.

Speaker 3  26:19
So I do think it's, I think that somebody who's interviewing for a residency or a job or anything that they want to do next, I think it's much better to be in the position saying this is what I did when I was faced with X, rather than say, Well, this is what I would do. Much stronger position.

Speaker 2  26:35
And sometimes it doesn't have to be for you to become a president of a student organization, as long as you get involved, attend one of those journal meetings they have, listen to the guest speakers, maybe attend one of the CE events in the community, we have a dinner and talk to the speaker at the end of the event. And that would lead to more networking and connecting opportunities that you never know could be helpful in your before you're getting your residency, or even after that, you know, getting you another job,

Unknown Speaker  27:05
absolutely, absolutely so

Dr. Sean Kane  27:07
kind of segueing with jobs. You know, most people who are not familiar with the profession of pharmacy. So most families before, you know, they have a son or daughter that goes into pharmacy, school, associates pharmacy, with retail pharmacy. Those who are in pharmacy school right now know about job opportunities like clinical pharmacy, ambulatory care pharmacy, long term care pharmacy, hospital pharmacy. What career paths Do you see that are more non traditional, that may be expanding in the future, or are just exciting opportunities that you would want a typical student or a family member of a student to know about that could be a cool career path that is kind of opening up, you know, either now or in the next decade.

Speaker 3  27:49
Yeah, I think, you know, it's funny because I'm sitting here listening to you, because when I came to pharmacy school, it was all about, I'm going to be a community pharmacist, I'm going to be an owner of a store, and I'm going to work, you know, I had it all planned out, and that was it. And then you're right, you get here, and the analogy I've used is that, you know, going into pharmacy is kind of like going into Macy's and saying, I want to buy a shirt. Well, what kind of shirt Do you want? We have long sleeve. We have short sleeve. We have no sleep. There's a billion different things. And most of the time, people come in with a very limited view of what they think they want to do. Obviously, I'm going to have to put a plug in for academia. I don't think that that's going away anytime soon. I think that's going to continue to grow. I'm very excited about ACP standards and how they're going to change to be much more interdisciplinary, I think, and I really do believe this. I think that that's going to drive some opportunities in terms of what pharmacists can do in an interdisciplinary environment when they get out. I think we're going to be working more with the professions closely, and I think that they're going to be looking for us in a different way when we get out. You know, a lot of people have jumped up and down about the Affordable Care Act. I think there's some really great opportunities in there for pharmacists, and I think there are a lot of places that we can go. Places that we can continue to grow in terms of helping people understand their benefits, to med rec, to everything else. It continues to move in a direction that I'm continually optimistic about. I don't think you know, in 10 years that the number of jobs right now, especially in the community sector, I don't think they're going to be the same job, but I don't think that's a bad thing. And I know people are looking at things in the news and like, oh my goodness, all these mergers and closing stores, I still think there's going to be an opportunity in that environment where, to this day, if you want to access a health care provider right now, walking off the street, there's nobody else that does it like we do. I still think there's an opportunity there and a place for those pharmacists to be at the front lines in a significant, meaningful way. And we've already seen the immunization thing come there's there's a there's other things on the horizon in that environment. I do think med rec is one of those things that's continuing down, but I think. Are, I think they're going to be opportunities, maybe not this great awakening and having, you know, 450,000 new jobs in this particular area, but the pharmaceutical industry continues to grow, and there continue to be opportunities there for things that were done in a less health care provider role, and more health care providers and pharmacists being a big part of that, being a part of the way they're trying to advance things too. So lots of good things coming down the road.

Dr. Sean Kane  30:29
The last question for you. So let's say that you become the dean of any college of pharmacy that you want to and we'll just say College of Pharmacy X. There's no specific one, and this College of Pharmacy X has the typical curricula that any other college of pharmacy on average has. What's the biggest, most impactful change that you would recommend for this average curriculum to either prepare students for some of these newer jobs that you're mentioning, or to really change how pharmacy is taught to pharmacy students. Or what major change would you make to that curriculum that you think would be the most impactful change?

Speaker 3  31:08
All right, so I'm the dean. I can do whatever I want, right? Okay, so I am going to change the curriculum to force, compel, require students to question. I'm going to make them not take things at the status quo. But I'm going to say, well, what if we did it differently? What if we did it this way? Why are we doing it that way? What if we tried this? I and I'm not saying that I have all the power to do that here, but I am saying that from an experiential standpoint, I could definitely see a place for changing the culture in the way that our students think, not just dispensing information, but actively questioning why things are the way they are. And I think if they do that, they will find opportunities to make things better in a way that they never thought possible. So I my curriculum would be a question in curriculum, and I would force students to think and question and actively discuss with their faculty and their peers why things are the way they are, why we can't do it differently.

Dr. Sean Kane  32:07
Has that happened before? Where that has happened and that has really influenced your opinion of that?

Speaker 3  32:13
I read a book called a more beautiful question, which really got me thinking about the power of questioning and how you can be innovative, and those kind of things. And I think there's a place in a curriculum like ours, when you've got so many different people who are doing the things they're doing because they need to be done, and they don't take a step back to say, I think we may be able to do this in a different or a better way. And I think that students fail to recognize that they can. They can ask a question just like you or I can. There's nothing. There's no difference in the validity of a question coming from a p1 than there is from, you know, a department head.

Speaker 2  32:46
I absolutely agree with that, to encourage students to have feedback and participation. And that's why our college in particular, have student positions in most of the faculty committee as well as the school committees too. So I do see that being one of the evolving fronts of the college,

Dr. Sean Kane  33:03
to be honest with you, that's one of the reasons I came to Rosalind Franklin, is I wanted there to not be a status quo, so that there isn't a culture of questioning to say, well, is that really the best way to do it? And I think that that's a super powerful way to have a dramatic improvement in how you teach, how you learn. You know, all of those things are really, really exciting.

Unknown Speaker  33:22
Sounds like I'm at the right place.

Speaker 2  33:24
Well, we're glad to have you. Dr. cannon, thank you. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it, and I hope students can learn something out of this podcast as well.

Dr. Sean Kane  33:34
With that, I'll sign off. I'm Dr. Kane, I'm Dr. Patel, I'm Dr. Cannon.

Narrator - Dr. Abel  33:39
Thank you for listening to this episode of HelixTalk. This is an educational production copyright Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science. For more information about the show, please visit us at HelixTalk.com.